Tom
This whole text thing doesn't work out.
Max
Oh, yes. Because it's been terrible to you.
Tom
I'm gonna
Max
be a thing.
Tom
Really have an amazing future as a bartender. Right?
Max
Yeah. I I said that. You might level it on it, Keith. We'll see.
Tom
I make delicious cocktails.
Max
Weird question. What do I do with my hands? And do I
Colleen
I It depends.
Max
Am I gonna like
Colleen
I think
Max
pat Joe it and lean back?
Colleen
It's up to you leaning. Yeah. I'm not gonna do that, but I think that's fine. Alright. So it's been since twenty twenty when Ketch was founded. That's a long time in this short lived little privacy industry. You know, how wrong were you about what would happen in privacy over the last five, six years, actually?
Max
I do you remember Chris Goldsmith? This wonderful Yeah. Absolutely. He used to work with us in the beginning. Big ups to Chris. We miss you dearly. I remember he the answer is neither. He came back, probably been doing maybe thirty, forty meetings, and he came back and he said, it's interesting. You know, I I I feel like you were completely way too early and way too late at the same time.
Tom
I've heard you do a better Chris Goldsmith on that.
Max
Yeah. I can. One more time.
Tom
One more time. Wait. Come on. You can do it. I don't want
Max
You know what? We can't do this. I'm sorry. We're So
Tom
Chris is gonna watch this? Come on. Send it. And
Colleen
and maybe it matters.
Max
Maybe it doesn't. And one of the important things I love you, Chris. I'm sorry. Please still call me over for dinner. Make a great pretzel. But the the point is, you know, in a way, think he was exactly right. And we were both extremely wrong and extremely right at the same time. There were tons of core privacy features that everyone had, and then all these bets that we had made, we were way too early for it at time of the I
Tom
agree. Look, no one can outsmart the market, and all of us spend so many hours and days trying to figure out the exact timing. I think we were, from a certain perspective and to your point, a little early on some of the things that took the market a frustratingly long amount of time to figure out. And then at the same time, if you go back and look at the decision when we jumped in, post GDPR and multiple states making moves and brands becoming aware of the importance of this issue, from that vantage point, perfect timing.
Colleen
No doubt. Well, folks, I can't wait to unpack this with both of you. My name's Colleen Barry. This is the Privacy Huddle, this happens to be episode one hundred, which is so exciting. Can't believe our little show is making it to one hundred, and so we thought what better way to celebrate than spend a little time with the cofounders at Ketch. As you all know, I'm head of marketing at Ketch, and the Privacy Huddle is our weekly show where we unpack data privacy tips, tricks, best practices, trends, and news headlines. And so today, we're gonna do something a little different and unpack the history of Ketch and the early bets and where we've landed and where we're going in this fast paced, surprisingly competitive little industry. So let's dig into it. I love to start with a little bit of the founding story. Max, I've heard you talk about this with customers and at conferences. Tom, just so you know, Max is describing the founding of Ketch as I drew the short stick at Salesforce. Is that how you would phrase it
Tom
as If you spend any time with this guy, you already know that he loves to take liberties. Right? That's a crawl. That's not the case.
Colleen
I had a feeling.
Tom
And let's just have our first fight right now. Max was not he was lucky to be deputized post acquisition of our last company together called Crux at Salesforce. This GDPR thing happened, and I think Benioff said, I don't know, GDPR. Could somebody please handle this? So we dispatched the the smartest, best product manager we had to the desk. It was gnarly. We think we understood the implications. I remember at the time when we put the numbers to it because you you say at the time, like, yeah, whatever GDPR happens, somebody needs to be deleted. You know, how hard can that be? But if you're gonna do that in technology and not by running a ticket around the office, the cloud costs, by our best estimate at the time, were gonna rise by at least thirty percent. So at the time, we talked about this as, oh, just delete that person. But it was like reaching into an ocean and grabbing this little droplet with this much nitrogen and that much oxygen and carbon, and extracting it from the ocean and putting it over here. So it sounded easy, but it's really, really hard, and Max was the person who really pioneered the productization of that first insertion point for privacy.
Max
And in my defense, I'm the identity marketing guy
Tom
Right.
Max
With a project with no experience in privacy and a four percent global turnover fine if we mess it up at Salesforce.
Tom
There was that.
Max
It does feel like a pit of a setup in my shoes at Max. I love you, buddy. You got this, though. Get out there.
Tom
Well, you know I've done these motivational speeches before you go into a big thing or a new job, and I look you straight in the eyes and I say, whatever you do
Max
Don't f it up.
Tom
Don't f it up.
Max
Right? An inspiring leader
Tom
It's inspiring way to get people moving.
Max
It's an honor to work
Tom
for you.
Max
Lead from the front.
Tom
Yeah. You know, it's a great way of generating results, I found. It's
Max
Look, there are jockeys and there are horses. I'm just glad I'm glad.
Colleen
Well, know in those early days, Max, as you were starting to conceive of Ketch, there must have been early concepts that you played around with, whether it was products or ways of messaging that haven't quite made it to twenty twenty six. So tell me about give the crowd an example of something that maybe might get you laughed out of a room stay or would get you confused looks. What were you trying in the early days?
Max
Yeah. Let's have the marketing head. Who knows? I'm terrible at coining terms.
Tom
It's a setup.
Max
Yeah. Exactly. It does feel For those watching, I don't think either of them are happy with you right now. Back then, didn't work, and I don't think it would work today. But I was really passionate about the idea of what we then called fortification. And the thesis behind it was purpose limitation requires a level of access control in systems that really had never been contemplated before. Most access control frameworks contemplate employees at a company and what resources or things in the company that they can access, but privacy and look, I loved GDPR. I thought it was awesome. This idea of purpose limitation now contemplates which individuals row can be used for which purposes and the categories of information that can be used for those purposes. So now you've kinda got a row by column by use case contemplation that really and we tried a lot of these access control frameworks before we did anything on our own and they didn't work. And so the idea of fortification was we would leverage cryptography and a lot of cool advanced techniques.
Tom
Differential privacy at the time was
Max
Homomorphic encryption. Like, you know, we was like, this is where it's going. Everyone's gonna take this super seriously. And we got kicked out of every boardroom in America. That I remember. Maybe one we didn't, but we didn't get the meeting. So we batted a solid zero, and I don't think the term fortification helped. But the idea still glistens, but, you know, we were wrong in concept at the time. Maybe right in concept, wrong in implementation pattern, and the term is terrible.
Tom
Yeah. I think as we look back at that, I don't know if the idea, especially from today's perspective, is totally opposed, because we had The notion was go to the data itself and exert control at the data, at where it resides, not in transit or in flow as it moves out to other systems, which is really where we moved over time. So the idea made sense. I think the way I look at this now today is that when we used to call Ketch the data control company Yep. We actually fought the privacy moniker for a while. Fortification company for a Fortification company. So
Max
all predates you.
Colleen
I know lawyers watching here, the data fortification company are like, wow, I missed the boat on that one. Would want that. Yeah.
Tom
Right? Nerds. Nerds unite. So but look, I think where we stand today, and there's a broad awareness now That data privacy is a data management slash data control problem. So I think the execution was off, but the conception was and I sound like a proud founder as I say this, I'm sure, but the conception If you're starting a new company, conception, conception, conception. Get the idea right, and of course you're gonna zig and zag, and you're gonna make a bunch of mistakes, or get the big idea right. And so in that way and again, maybe I sound a little defensive as we talk about this. Yeah. With Coco here now, fortification, you wouldn't let that
Colleen
live for wouldn't have made it. No.
Tom
No. There's resignation level founder over time. Exactly.
Max
You guys are on your own premiere.
Tom
But you'd work with us to figure out, okay, what's behind that?
Colleen
Yes. Right? Well, and it's been a very interesting journey I think over the last since twenty twenty when Ketch was founded of how do we speak the language of the privacy legal buyer, and how do we translate the deep technical expertise and data management expertise into something that makes sense for a lawyer that's grappling with risk management for the business. And what's really interesting as you talk about fortification is that, and your point, Tom, about getting the early bets right, there are a number of early bets that I think you did get right. Because as we see now, it's been, of course, a very interesting twelve to eighteen months in data privacy. Finally, all of these US laws are coming into sort of their enforcement period, and we're seeing a lot of orders come down from Honda to Disney to General Motors. And now we're actually seeing what does it look like when these regulations are enforced, and what do the regulators care about. And it would seem that they care about a lot of the early principles and bets that we made here at Ketch. So I'd love to maybe unpack a few of those with you both today, and I wanna start with one that I know is one of your favorites, which is orchestration. Max, maybe for the benefit of the audience here, you know, help us define this concept. Most of the industry bought a cookie banner, thought that solved for consent. But orchestration is a big part of what you need to add on, if you will, to that cookie banner to make it really solve for consent. So what's the difference between what's the gap between I have a cookie banner and what orchestration does?
Max
Yeah. Again, this is all rooted in the GDPR for me, actually. Like, I took a lot of the early bets from the principles of the GDPR and we talked about purpose limitation. And if you read it closely and you think about it for profoundly too many hours, you kinda come up with this idea that it's about how you process data. Can you use this data for these reasons and how do you control that? And that's what it said. And, you know, my trope is the GDPR was passed and everyone complied with privacy. And the cookie law. And the CCPA was passed and everyone complied with e privacy. And and, you know, understandably it seems, and I'm not a lawyer, but it seems like these cases as they come out is really the only kind of instantiation point of this is now what I can read and learn what is required. Right? Law is one thing, but enforcement teaches another. And so what what we're learning is that blocking cookies is adorable. They don't collect data. Other tech techniques collect data, but the essence is it's important when somebody makes a privacy choice to control the way you collect data based on those choices. But there, especially in California in an opt out climate where you've got six months plus of historical data on the individual who exercised the right to opt out. If we care about at least in the share context, cross context behavioral advertising, the genie's out of the bottle. You've got six months of data in Facebook that is actually facilitating a share as that definition has strangely been created and no one has ever been talking about that. But now we're starting to see enforcement turn its attention to these exact types of concepts. So for us orchestration was the idea that holistically from collection to processing all the way to, you know, expiry of data, you needed to exert these types of controls as it related to consent.
Colleen
But you started building orchestration, I'm thinking about this in twenty twenty, when the cookie banner market was a roaring success. So mean, Tom, what made you confident enough as a founder to bet on a concept that was not following the herd at the time?
Tom
Look, every every company build out that I've been a part of, as I reflect on it, there are early no regrets imperatives. This was one of them for us. Sometimes you want the rest of the market to understand how right you are a couple of quarters later. This one took much longer. Right? But we're back to data privacy as a data management imperative. By the way, I also like some people think, my god, you guys really saw it. Don't give us too much credit because as data management geeks, we just come to this. And this is before enforcement people are talking about flow now. I don't think that was even a thing necessarily by then.
Max
Not in nineteen. I mean, yeah, it was, but no one was reading it closely. Really, we I, us, we, whatever, rooted this in purpose limitation from the GDPR.
Tom
So for us, it just made sense from a first principles basis. If you're gonna have a privacy solution and you opt out or ask to be deleted, that the company would have a natural, but of course obligation to propagate your signal to the email newsletter so you don't get that pesky newsletter thing. Because if you're a consumer, no, I already opted out, and then they say, yeah, but the email provider didn't do the thing. They didn't We didn't have the ability to orchestrate the signal back to them. If I'm the consumer, that sounds like a personal problem. Right? So if we're thinking about the whole solution, but of course you have to handle this. And that's why I say maybe we're clever, but again, looking at it from a first principles perspective at the time, it just felt like we could run, but we couldn't hide From this this orchestration imperative.
Max
In a way, I mean, the funny thing about orchestration is that it was really the downshift. I remember, you know, we man, we were passionate about fortification. I really liked it. But
Colleen
He's still trying to make it happen.
Max
I might.
Colleen
This is a mean girl situation? I'm like Well,
Tom
five years from now, everybody will be buying
Max
On current horse
Colleen
and speed. That isn't gonna happen.
Tom
Give Hey,
Max
but Ketch will. But I remember vividly we had this conversation about abandoning the strategy that the Well, the strategy we didn't abandon, but the tactic we did. The leveraging cryptography and all these elaborate techniques and engineers saying, so I gotta rewrite my data processing pipelines to solve for privacy. I don't care. I'm buying a cookie banner. Like Right. We realized then, okay, it has to be a lower lift insertion point. So this whole tactical direction shifted from change the way you process data categorically and entirely and you know, everything's gonna be good to the integration burden became immense. Right. Like nobody had and still really nobody has good privacy APIs that we can interface Yeah. So we we took on you know, we traded the tactic to we're gonna take on the burden within the constructs or constraints that exist in the market to effectuate privacy objectives at the processing level without pushing that burden onto the engineering teams. Yeah.
Colleen
But that brings up another interesting point and decision I think over the years, which is that you knew you wanted the customer to get to this point of understanding the need for orchestration, but maybe they need a lower insertion point. Yeah. And so it's been a unique decision to create a self-service product, right, with Ketch Free and the lightweight cookie banner. So you you have met the market over the years.
Tom
You meet the market as it lies. You don't nobody makes a market. You don't we don't drop lightning bolts on customers and make all of them see the light at the same moment. We get out there, and I've said we're converting Heathens in the jungle, and I have a cookie banter problem. Okay. Let's talk about that.
Colleen
Right.
Tom
Right? We don't have to be school alarms and sermonized when people aren't ready for the gospel. We'll meet them where they lie, and then we're very proud of the fact that we show up as thought partners for our customers. We want to bring them along, and so much of our sales motion as a company is not just peddling features and capabilities, but actually becoming strategic advisors to our customers and bringing them along.
Colleen
Absolutely. Another concept moving from orchestration that was an early bet that I think is paying off big time as far as recent enforcement goes is identity. Right? We've seen identity be the central thrust of some of these most recent CalPrivacy and California AG enforcements, where enforcers are actually talking about linking people's consent choices across browsers, devices, platforms. And this is a concept that was fundamental to Ketch from day one. I mean, Max, this choice of focusing on the identity bet, why was that the harder, less obvious call at the time? Or maybe it was obvious to you, but explain.
Max
I'll copy your line. Don't give me too much credit. You're there's a lot of there's a lot of luck in this, and so I'm not. There wasn't like, I have this great idea. It's spend your entire career making ad tech products where identity is a central component of how ad tech should work. And, of course, like the law talks about data subjects. Right? It wouldn't talk about devices. Right. It talked about data subjects, and these rights are afforded to data subjects. And so I just kinda felt like, well, we know how this identity thing works. Yeah. We might as well do it at the person level and, you know, that'll be a cool differentiator. But it was really just colored by I did identity management products when you were at Crux and Salesforce and my prior company before that. Like, it just
Tom
See, I'm back to first principles, and I'll make this story a little more vivid because I'm married to a woman who cusses like a sailor at night when she's in bed looking at her iPad and interacting with by the way, she's like the most and it has nothing to do with me. She's a privacy zealot. So if she's clicking on her iPad and they're doing the privacy experience again, she goes to crazy town because I already did it on my mobile phone. Why are these ******** making me do this right now? I don't think she's wrong. Right? If you're a human being in the world and forget the codes. Right? Forget the regulations for a moment. You know what I mean. And there we are again. That's a personal problem. How do you guys synchronize identity across the me across all of these places? Just handle it. By the way, you have that expectation now in an ad based economy, right, where you have the same experience of ads and other things and content that you enjoy on your iPad as as you experience on your iPhone or your laptop. Why wouldn't you have the same expectation that the exact same thing applies here? By the way, that drives me crazy when the larger companies, the ad based companies, oh, this privacy thing seems so hard. We'd love to be able to do it, but we just can't. We don't understand how technically impossible it Well you're doing exactly that to your ads.
Max
We should give props to the enforcers. Like, they're ramp I mean, it's been a journey for you and I to kind of do our push ups and learn privacy law and things that we were less familiar with from the ad tech side. Right. I think the enforcement side of the house coming from a legal background and then trying to figure out this ad tech stuff. Right. They've done an amazing job. Right. And, you know, looking at excerpts from recent settlements or orders, they exactly hit that point. If you can do this for the purposes of advertising, you gotta do it Right. For the purposes of privacy. And then, you know, they even double triple down and they address this point so nicely and they say, well, you can recognize and connect these devices even when people aren't logged in. The biggest misunderstanding of identity right now is, well, it only matters that they're logged in. And just squarely, they cut to the crux of the issue and say, it's forget all those arguments.
Tom
Right.
Max
There's a symmetry aspect.
Tom
That's right.
Max
That's And if you can do it here, you're gonna do it there.
Tom
And I can spend if anybody listening to this, whether you do it with Ketch or do it with somebody else, if you're being sold snake oil like that, you have a right to tell them to jump in a lake. It's very possible. Right? When they write the story of Ketch many, many years from now, it's gonna sound like a couple of data management martech geeks walked into a privacy bar. Dot, dot, dot. And then everything unfolds from there. That's not a mistake.
Max
They ordered Cookie Marfie.
Colleen
Right? Yeah. Exactly. Oh my gosh. That's great. Okay. And that brings us to the third bet from the early days that I think has also truly stood the test of time, which is auditability. Right? We see just based on the recent regulatory orders coming down, the litigation trend here in the US where many companies are receiving these demand letters and need to demonstrate compliance, need to demonstrate the kind of data collection that's happening on their websites, auditability has become critical and is an expectation now from privacy tech. What are the reports like? What are the analytics like? And how do I demonstrate compliance? I like this one because, Tom, for folks watching, they may not know you. You like your little quips, your little memes, and the the auditability concept brings to mind one of your favorites, which is total look back. Instant recall?
Max
Instant look back. Total recall.
Colleen
Thank you. Instant look back. Total recall.
Max
Right.
Colleen
Tom, where did that originate, and why does it stick with you?
Tom
And here we are again back to data management geeks. And speaking of ads, right, working in Martech as we did for many, many years, you had ad logs that compiled this absurdly huge dataset around who saw what ad and what IP address at what time of day and what so you could go back and parse whether or not the money that I spent on ads actually hit the side of the barn or not. Did it work? Did it not work? But of course, that's the way that unfolded then. We came from that space, and so we built a company built that was adjacent to advertising content commerce, and in that context, we had to be able to parse those ad logs to deliver full value for our customers. What's cooler, better about Ketch is we come to the arena and there's no such thing as an ad log or as a privacy log or a permission log, but showing up as we do, like, well, but of course, we're gonna store all of that. And at that time, it was not clear at all that anybody would ever look back Right. And see. But for us, it just made sense. And yes, I do like these tropes, so I wanna and we're control freaks in a way too. We always wanted to be able to monitor our own performance. Right? So I don't if I wanted to see which customers in which geography opted in or out for the use of their age but not their zip code for recommendations but not ads, we should be able to serve out that answer. And I don't wanna have an engineering team that has to go whack through the jungle for three months to give us the analytic reports. That just needs to be an in line real time thing. So we carry forward that instant By the way, instant look back Total Recall was an organizing concept from that prior company. We just cut and paste it and use it here.
Colleen
There you go.
Max
Turns to look back to Total Recall.
Tom
Love that.
Max
It sounds
Colleen
like It reminds me of the Terminator.
Tom
Reminds me
Colleen
the Terminator whenever I
Tom
hear you. There was a movie called Total Recall.
Colleen
Oh, that yeah. There you go.
Tom
Yeah. And maybe that's where it started. I don't know where the instant look back came from. The instant look back was just impatience. No. I will not wait for three months for you to come back with that. I want it now.
Colleen
I will. As we think about all of these early bets that have stuck, I mean, kind of juxtaposed with the current state of the market, and now it seems like we're finally seeing a shift in desire to move from legacy tech. Right? A lot of these concepts come up when we speak with customers or potential customers of Ketch or partners. Interest in orchestration and identity and auditability. And it does seem like we're now finally seeing a bit of a tipping point where companies that have been on a legacy vendor for a long time are ready to make the move. They're thinking, okay, it's worth the lift and shift. I mean Max, what do you think is the tipping point there? What do you think is making that happen?
Max
I mean, think one is enforcement. I think that's probably the biggest one. And I and I do think that the the market has matured a lot and there's there are more vendors and the bar has been raised and I think people are aware of that. And then there's a whole concoction of of market dynamics that are that are creating that, but I do think one of the big ones, speaking of something that we completely got wrong, could have never foreseen, how could it be that a software vendor's solution is actually propped up by, you know, an entire army of engineers that kinda wire the whole thing together? Like, I should've been doing software long enough to to know that that was a move. Like, if you would've told me, hey, man. We're gonna start a software company, but we're not actually gonna make all the features.
Tom
Right.
Max
We're gonna we're gonna make the ten percent. We're gonna claim the one hundred, and then we're gonna pay other people to finish
Tom
Wait. You're gonna pay busloads of other people to come in and finish the thing. It's so two thousand and late, you can't believe it. People used to do this in the nineteen nineties. Know it sounds like Soviet era stuff. People would buy a piece of software from Oracle and then hire Deloitte or E and Y or whoever, Accenture to come in with busloads of people to do this. It's the strangest damn thing ever, right, where privacy legal folks, I don't know, they somehow just didn't get the memo that we don't do that anymore. With clicks not code, clicks not consultants, the software actually needs to do the thing. This has taken years off our life. We're gonna have a therapy session on this separately.
Max
Well, and then they'll I mean, sorry. I have to triple down. These consultants are incredibly talented people, and their highest best use of time is not in writing code to supplement software. Privacy is hard and there's a lot of leverage you can get from Ernst and Young to run a better program. But if you're relegating them to your engineering team's function, it just seems
Tom
like a terrible use case. One hundred percent. There's so many more important strategic imperatives to be pursued in terms of how do I reorganize my consumer experience? How do I wrap the consumer in lot of the things that we're starting to do now? How do I make privacy a profit center? Right? How do I use this to drive top line growth, which we're doing for a number of really important clients around the world now? That's the highest best use of their time.
Colleen
And I think what's interesting on that too and encouraging is we spend a lot of time in the field, conferences, customer events, and when we speak with teams about specifically legal privacy teams about these marketing concepts and data collection, There's furious note scribbling. They're very eager to learn, think, which is really encouraging for the industry.
Max
It is.
Tom
I would add to what you said though. Yes, enforcement makes a difference. What we've also seen is that privacy legal people are absolutely at the table as they must be, and they know an awful lot about so many of the things that we have learned on the job, as you pointed out earlier. But we see CTOs, CIOs, CSOs coming to the table and recognizing that privacy is a data problem. Right? It's not a legal problem. We had one of our partners who said, what's an apt way of saying it? What was
Max
I'm gonna try it. Privacy is not a legal problem with data implications, but a data problem with legal implications.
Tom
That's it. That's it. And so the market, the buyers, the customers we're working with have come to their own realization, and I think that's what's really enriched the conversations we're having. I would say parenthetically, been at this for a long, long time. I've never that legacy provider that you mentioned, Coco, we've never seen I've never seen a legacy provider with such a strange stranglehold on a market with so many pissed off customers who just are crying out. I've never seen it. Neither am I. And so finally, the fever is broken. We're very privileged and very happy to have many of their their very best now joining us and working with us at Ketch. So, again, looks like the fever's broken, and that's the final that's the final piece of the of the puzzle for us.
Colleen
No doubt. Well, as we come to a close, I wanna ask a couple final questions of each of you. Max, as I said, this is a hundredth episode. We've done many of these. You're a frequent guest. We plan to do many more. So tell me, what's the conversation you wish more people in privacy were having right now? What should we be talking about more?
Max
I don't think it's about privacy. Ironically enough, I mean, I think the trying to crack the code of how do we help people come to the conclusions that we, you know, that we believe in, not just in service of selling, but in service of the right solution design. Like, I always say to prospects, I don't actually care if you buy the software I'm selling. If we can have a shared understanding of what the target or the problem is, then the solution unfolds in a very obvious way. I think the missing component among privacy practitioners is they still don't necessarily understand how companies put data to work. It's still a little bit mysterious and so, you know, in twenty nineteen everyone said, I can't run my privacy program unless I have a data map. And and I'm now kinda reflecting on what was really happening there. It wasn't a software application like a data catalog. It was I need to understand how the companies are putting data to work which is fun of course. If you don't know that you and your team are using Facebook ads and LinkedIn ads and data moves from the browser and gets stored into a database back into this other thing through a CDP so on and so forth, You don't actually understand those flows. You can't actually pinpoint the mapping between that behavior and the legal obligation. And as the privacy community has gotten so much smarter in that area, you're starting to see the astute questions unfold and the, you know, the coalescence around that solution design. And so if I wish that there was anything that the privacy community was talking more about, it would be how does data processing happen without a data map, without buying software. We're just like, how do people put data to work? Right.
Colleen
Tom, if you had started Ketch now instead of six years ago, what bet would you make today?
Tom
Yeah. Well, picking up where where Max was there a minute ago and under the banner of putting data to work, It's twenty twenty six. AI is a planetary unfolding. And we present ourselves as the AI privacy company because we understand that permissioned data with privacy is the precondition for successful AI, and we've identified an AIified every piece of our solution. So if I were starting it today, I think with and hindsight is always twenty twenty, but I would you know, we're all in. Right? We would be tripling down and putting even more juice into persuading and helping our customers understand, to my earlier point about advisory and thought partnership, helping our customers understand that this is the path to participation in the AI economy. So I think we're doing that. I'm proud of capabilities we developed for privacy as a profit center, privacy for top line growth. So it's not a state of mind. So many of our customers are making those moves now. That's been important for us to move from privacy as defense to privacy as more offense. So it's not really an alteration of the core strategy. It's just putting more juice behind these more sort of transform transformative opportunities.
Colleen
Absolutely. Well, on that note, thank you gentlemen both for joining me. Always a pleasure, Tom and Max, and thanks all for tuning in. Next week, we'll be back to our regularly scheduled programming. We have a fantastic in house privacy council joining us next week to talk about her program, And that's it for today. So as always, I'm Colleen. This is the privacy huddle, and that's a wrap on episode one hundred. We'll see you all next time.
